pierre Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 de toute façon le sujet sera nettoyé en temps et en heure, voire a la brosse a dent par Pedro si il en fait trop... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPM Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 Cette histoire d'arc immenses pour tirer à cheval me semble totalement farfelue. Tirant à cheval personellement je ne me vois pas avec une canne à pêche au point de vue fonctionnel ne serait ce que pour changer de côté rapidement sans crever l'oeil de mon voisin. Plus sérieusement il n'y a aucune représentation connue d'arc composite long chez des cavaliers. Même à l'époque moderne les cavaliers ont toujours eu pour des raisons de maniabilité des armes courtes (mousquetons, pistolets) sauf les dragons des origines qui étaient des fantassins montés combattant à pied. Arc court représenté sur un vase d'or du kourgane de Koul Oba et sur le pectoral de tolstaïa mogila. Les reste de Goritis (Carquois d'arc ) permettent d'évaluer la taille des arcs avec précision. Le cavalier cuirassé parthe de Doura Europos a un arc court; Idem sur le drachme de Mithridate Ier. Idem le roi Shapour sur les plats d'argent du musée de l'Hermitage à St Petersbourg. Les seuls grands arcs composite sont ceux de l'INFANTERIE chinoise et encore pas plus de 1.70 environ. Il y a contradiction entre la mécanique du composite et une taille immense à mon avis. J.P A titre info mon bouquin "L'Arc Des Steppes" va sortir chez GERFAUT dans deux ou trois mois. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acer campestre Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 1- je passe commande tout de suite ... 2- si j'ai bien lu tu remontes aux scythes ? 3- est ce que tu traites des arcs bilames du nord des steppes ? 4- que pense tu des bouquins de Iaroslav Lebedynsky sur les scythes , les sarmates etc; (édition Errance) @@@ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallus Sinensis Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 Moi aussi je veux le bouquin ! Si t'as encore de la place, tu peux me pomper des photos de pointes Saka, pas de problemes. Plus un arc est grand, plus il est inadapté a la cavalerie. Sinon on aurait invente une nouvelle discipline olympique : le saut a la perche a cheval. Au fait, c'est bien gorytos, non ? pas gorytis ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierre Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 Suis preneur pour un exemplaire dédicacé a benassay... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEDRO Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 pour un piège, là ça me parait réaliste, mais alors pour être tiré par des humains morphologiquement normaux, franchement à mon avi c'est une farce .. 3m, ça fait la poignée à 1,50m environ. C'est encore tirable, en penchant l'arc si besoin est. Mais pas à cheval.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shem Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 N^y aurait-il pas moyen de reprendre contact avec le dit prof ou un lien internet, etc..afin d'avoir quelques info? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPM Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 Je vous laisse sur votre faim les petits gars... On commence avec les Scythes et on termine avec les Turcs; Gallus et Pierre figureront dans la liste des "bons petits" qui ont contribués à la réalisation de ce remaquable ouvrage et de ce fait je pense éviter les remarques parfois fines toujours caustiques de Pierre..... A + J.P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierre Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 j'aurais préferé parfois caustiques et toujours fines :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
string Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 (edited) jamais entendu parler de ca non plus! l´ archerie montee byzantine etait composee en majorite d´ auxilliaire turcs voire meme seldjoukides qui etaient recrutes en general en cappadoce et qui a ma conaissance utilisaient leur prores arcs (en general court et composites). en guise de particularime,les byzantins ne conaissaient pas l´ arbalete mais par contre se servaient d´ un curieux tube fixe a l´ arc et qui guidait la fleche au moment de la decoche! byzantine arrow guide Edited February 21, 2005 by string Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallus Sinensis Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 String, tu peux montrer une image et un peu de texte de ton lien ? Mes gentils hôtes ne veulent pas que j'aille sur geocities.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierre Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 ... This article is in fact a re-working of an article which appeared in the Varangian Voice (Volume 23) in July 1992 and relies heavily on the work of Nishimura.1. Figure 1. Arrow Guides. A. Tube Guide (schematic); B. Channel Guide (schematic) ; C. Bow, Channel Guide and Dart. Byzantine military treatises of full of obstacles for the unwary, especially in the interpretation of terminology which is often subject specific and therefore obscure. The solenarion is one of those words which have caused problems, being persistently identified as, a crossbows when in fact it was an arrow guide used to shoot short arrows from a normal bow. The solenarion is first mention in the twelfth book of Maurice’s Strategikon which was written towards the end of the sixth century. There it recommended that light infantry be armed with bows and large quivers holding thirty or fourty arrows, small shields, and wooden solenarion with small arrows and small quivers. Other texts also mention the solenarion such Loe’s Tactica and the Problemata of Leo VI (886-912), the anonymous mid-tenth century Sylloge Tacticorum, and the anonymous Ambrosiana Paraphrase (c.959). All these texts describe the solenarion as an archer's accessory, used with the normal bow to shoot short arrows. The origin of the arrow guide has been ascribed to the seventh century Greek, Persians and the Arabs by Huuri, but the earliest non Greek reference date is the eight century and generally only mention darts. The “dart bow" (Arabic qaws al-husbãn, qaws murakkabah àlã I-majrã; Persian kamãn-i tahš) is mentioned only later and specific detail is unknown. The arrow guide itself (Arabic majrã, mijrãt, or qasab; Persian nãwak) appears in texts still later, and is not specifically identified until the twelfth century. The Ambrosiana text describes the solenarion as “like a reed split down the middle”. Two different reconstructions are possible. The first, the guide is a tube with slots at top and bottom that run from its rear to within a few inches if its front (see Figure 1 A). The second, the guide is a channel, which can be undercut so as leave the opening wider than the arrow's shaft but narrower than its head (see Figure 1 B). The first design would have been held alongside the bow with the bowstring passing through the slots and bearing upon the rear of the dart within. The second would differ in requiring a nocked dart, whose head would have ridden in the hollow channel while its shaft angle out to engage the bowstring running alongside the slot. Whatever the form of the solenarion the Byzantine method of loading and release would have been similar to the Arab procedure. There was usually a cord attached to the rear of the guide which was held in the fingers of the right hand, although it could be attached to the finger ring or the wrist. When shooting the dart it would have been placed in the guide, the guide's cord would have been gasped, and then both the dart and the guide drawn back with the string. With the release the guide and dart both would travel forward, the solenarion would be retarded by the attached cord but the dart would fly from the bow towards its intended target. The Sylloge and the Ambrosiana Paraphrase the darts are called “mice” their size of between one and three fingers in length is mentioned by Paul of Aegina in the seventh century. The earliest Arabic darts to be specifically described were as big as the little finger from tip to feathers, allowing them to be stacked in the arrow guide and shot four of five at a time. As heavier armour was adopted due to the Crusades the smaller darts were made less effective, the Arabic treatises suggest using larger darts of about two spans long , with a heavy head and a thick shaft of hard, heavy wood. See Figure 2. Figure 2. - Roman catapult bolts. A. Bolt from Haltern : Iron head ; B. Bolt from Haltern : with wooden shaft ; C. Bolt from Vindonissa (Windisch) ; D. Roman-style bolt tested by Foley, Palmer and Soedel (scale approximate). The solenarion had a number of advantages such its low cost and minimum encumbrance which enabled the archer to carry more missiles in less space. The lightness of the darts would have provided a higher initial velocity, while short range penetration must have been increased by the greater stiffness and their resistance to shattering and deflection. Though the treatises mentions long range and speed but not penetration at long range. Their ability to surprise is mentioned, and that they were hard to spot and dodge because of their size and speed, which would have led to the name "mice" and "flies". The darts could be shot rapidly on the move, while when the need arose the solenarion could be set aside and the regular arrows used for faster and closer shooting. And finally the darts could not be used by an enemy who did not have the required equipment to fire them back. Modern experiments with reconstructions have demonstrated high launch speed and flat trajectory of the larger darts, and their effective range against massed targets has been estimated as some 366 meters. No Middle Eastern arrow guide is known to have survived, but a Korean guide exists in Manchester. The dimensions of reconstructions are, as follows: 1) 78.7 cm long with a channel 1.27 cm wide and 0.635 cm deep; 2) 76.2 cm long with a squared channel 1.9 cm wide and 0.95 cm deep. The early and middle Byzantine infantry did not require the use of such a weapon as the crossbow but with the development of the form of western warfare dominated by the charge of a relatively small number of very heavily armoured cavalry the solenarion was superceded eventually. With Eastern warfare, which consisted of skirmish and manoeuvre with lighter armoured troops, the need of versatility, speed and range were valued more than penetration power and so the use of the bow and the arrow guide persisted longer, even until well after the advent of musketry. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Footnote. 1. Nishimura, D., Crossbows, Arrow Guides, and the Solenarion, Revve Internationale des Etodes Byzantion Volume LVIII (1988), Pages 422-435. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bibliography. Dennis, G.T., Trans., Maurice’s Strategikon, USA, 1984. Faris, N.A., & Elmer R.P. Elmer, Arab Archery, Princeton, 1945. Latham, J.D. & W.E. Paterson, Saracen Archery, London 1970. Nishimura, D., Crossbows, Arrow-Guides, and the Solenarion, Byzantion: Revve Internationale des Etudes Byzantine, Vol. LVIII (1988). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Further Reading. Dennis, G.T., Flies, Mice and the Byzantine Crossbow, Byzantine and Modern Greek Studies, 7 (1981), 1-6. Hough, W., Korean Crossbow and Arrow-tube, American Anthropologist, N.S. 1/1 (Jan. 1899), 200. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallus Sinensis Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Xie Xie Pierre, danshi wo bu neng kan zhege zhaopian... Merci Pierre, mais je ne peux pas voir la photo... :109: Thomas Duvernay avait montré un dispositif comparable Coréen, peut etre sur Atarn... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierre Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 je pense que c'est du au fait que j'utilisais la fonction IMG qui redirique vers le site d'origine. donc après avoir enregistré l'image sur mon disque dure , je la reposte et tu devrais pouvoir la voir... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallus Sinensis Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Merci Pierre ! C'est bien le meme genre d'appareil que le coréen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierre Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 une espèce d'overdraw en somme.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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